Songtrix

Hi Eric,

Sorry for the frustration.  We also had another customer contact with the same problem with a SC88 recently, so we are keen to resolve this.

I don't have a SC88 available here, but maybe we can all work this together?

One thing that might help you is that the played midi stream from Songtrix should be identical to an exported midi file from the same song.

Here's a good approach for diagnosis:

1. Export the song to a midi file with File-Export.

2. Play this through your SC88 via Media Player or some other software.  Do the extended patches work?

3. Use File-Import Midi to analyse the events that Songtrix has generated.  Only the first step is needed, select the midi file you just exported, then use View Events for each track, or Map to get a disassembly for the whole file.  Does that give you any clues what might be causing your problem?

Hi Eric

I am having similar problems with extended sounds on my Roland SC88 PRO.  The problem shows itself when changing  voice bank or voice in the drop downs on any of the track setup dialogues.   As soon as either drop down closes the instrument changes to a basic GM sound and my SC88 changes into GM mode.  I suspect that a GM reset message is being sent as the drop down events fire. If this is the case then my sound canvas will not receive bank change messages  at all afterwards  until I send a GS reset message. If I do reset the sound canvas and play the song songtrix respects the bank and voice change and plays perfectly.  Try this with your SC8820.  Load a song into songtrix with a melody track. Change the bank and sound to some extended patch bank and voice. Then reset your SC8820 to GS mode. Now play the song and I think you will find you will now hear your chosen sound.
I have exported songs as midi files and played on other software.  But no midi software will play the song correctly, not because the midi file is not sending the correct bank and patch change messages (because I know IT IS by importing it into songtrix and loooking at the midi stream as Stephen Clarke suggests) but because our modules are being locked out of Bank Select messages by flipping into GM mode.  If you export a song with extended voices and load into some other sequencer then it will play correctly if you first send a GS reset either from your software or the panel on your SC8820.

Martin

Thank you Martin and CW support for input.

Yes Martin I've all'so done as support sugested and  as far as my limited expertise can tell everything looks OK, Can't GS reset as not included on SC-8820 and counter productive using reset in track setup.

I'll paste underneath 3 Midi exports in case support can suggest anything, 1=GS Bank 0, 2=GS Var 1, 3=GS Var 1 with sound canvas 4(SC-8820)

GS Bank 0 Piano
============================================================
Tick   Event      Params             Comment
============================================================
0   Ctrl_Chg   0x7B   0           {all_notes_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x79   0           {all_ctlrs_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x64   0           {rpn_msb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x65   0           {rpn_lsb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x06   2           {data_entry_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x26   0           {data_entry_f}
Pitch_Adj  0
Ctrl_Chg   0x00   0           {bank_sel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x20   0           {bank_sel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x41   0           {portamento}
Ctrl_Chg   0x42   0           {sustenuto}
Ctrl_Chg   0x43   0           {soft_pedal}
Patch_Chg  0                  {Acoustic Grand Piano}
Chan_Press 0
Ctrl_Chg   0x01   0           {mod_wheel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x21   0           {mod_wheel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5D   0           {chorus_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5B  32           {effect_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x40   0           {sustain_pedal}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0B 127           {expression_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2B 127           {expression_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x07 102           {volume_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x27 102           {volume_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x08  64           {balance_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x28   0           {balance_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0A  64           {pan_pos_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2A  64           {pan_pos_f}
576   Note_On    C5    96
1152   Note_Off   C5     0
5184
------------------------------------------------------------
GS Var 1 Piano
============================================================
Tick   Event      Params             Comment
============================================================
0   Ctrl_Chg   0x7B   0           {all_notes_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x79   0           {all_ctlrs_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x64   0           {rpn_msb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x65   0           {rpn_lsb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x06   2           {data_entry_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x26   0           {data_entry_f}
Pitch_Adj  0
Ctrl_Chg   0x00   1           {bank_sel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x20   0           {bank_sel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x41   0           {portamento}
Ctrl_Chg   0x42   0           {sustenuto}
Ctrl_Chg   0x43   0           {soft_pedal}
Patch_Chg  0                  {Acoustic Grand Piano}
Chan_Press 0
Ctrl_Chg   0x01   0           {mod_wheel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x21   0           {mod_wheel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5D   0           {chorus_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5B  32           {effect_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x40   0           {sustain_pedal}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0B 127           {expression_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2B 127           {expression_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x07 102           {volume_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x27 102           {volume_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x08  64           {balance_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x28   0           {balance_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0A  64           {pan_pos_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2A  64           {pan_pos_f}
576   Note_On    C5    96
1152   Note_Off   C5     0
5184
----------------------------------------------------------
GS Var 1 Piano on sound map 4(SC-8820)
============================================================
Tick   Event      Params             Comment
============================================================
0   Ctrl_Chg   0x7B   0           {all_notes_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x79   0           {all_ctlrs_off}
Ctrl_Chg   0x64   0           {rpn_msb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x65   0           {rpn_lsb}
Ctrl_Chg   0x06   2           {data_entry_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x26   0           {data_entry_f}
Pitch_Adj  0
Ctrl_Chg   0x00   2           {bank_sel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x20   4           {bank_sel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x41   0           {portamento}
Ctrl_Chg   0x42   0           {sustenuto}
Ctrl_Chg   0x43   0           {soft_pedal}
Patch_Chg  0                  {Acoustic Grand Piano}
Chan_Press 0
Ctrl_Chg   0x01   0           {mod_wheel_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x21   0           {mod_wheel_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5D   0           {chorus_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x5B  32           {effect_depth}
Ctrl_Chg   0x40   0           {sustain_pedal}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0B 127           {expression_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2B 127           {expression_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x07 102           {volume_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x27 102           {volume_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x08  64           {balance_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x28   0           {balance_f}
Ctrl_Chg   0x0A  64           {pan_pos_c}
Ctrl_Chg   0x2A  64           {pan_pos_f}
576   Note_On    C5    96
1152   Note_Off   C5     0
5184
----------------------------------------------------------
Not sure if relevant but below is a sentence from SC-8820 Manual, Is it sugesting a gap between Bank change & Patch Change?.

"On some MIDI sequencers,
control change data located
at the same step (timing) is
transmitted in ascending
order of controller number.
If you are using this type of
MIDI sequencer, you must
adjust the timing of the
bank select data so that it is
always transmitted in the
correct order of Bank Select
-Program Change."

Hi Eric

Ctrl_Chg  0x00  2          {bank_sel_c}
Ctrl_Chg  0x20  4          {bank_sel_f}
Ctrl_Chg  0x41  0          {portamento}
Ctrl_Chg  0x42  0          {sustenuto}
Ctrl_Chg  0x43  0          {soft_pedal}
Patch_Chg  0                  {Acoustic Grand Piano}

I dont think there is anything wrong with these midi control messages.  When I play a song in songtrix (or an exported mid file from songtrix  to another  sequencer for that matter) my midi dumps look the same and I get the correct sounds BUT only after resetting my Roland Sound Canvas out of GM mode. Setting the instruments in songtrix flips my SC88PRO  into GM mode as mentioned in my previous post.  Do you have another sequencer that you can load a midi file into.  If so there should be some way of sending a reset message to your SC-8820 via software first  and then play the exported songtrix file. Somehow you need to get your 8820 out of GM mode because whilst it is in that mode it will ignore bank select messages even when they are sent correctly  from songtrix or from any other software.

I am fairly sure that the problem for both of us lies in a GM reset message being sent with program changes in songtrix but I could well be wrong. It may be some other problem, we will have to wait and see.

My manual says this and i quote  " WHEN GM SYTEM IS TURNED ON , BANK SELECT RECEIVE IS TURNED OFF"  "WHEN GS RESET IS RECEIVED , BANK SELECT RECEIVE IS TURNED ON".

One idea you might try is to play a demo midi file that came with your SC-8820. I should imagine one of these midi files will be there to show off all the extended sounds it is capable of.  With a bit of luck this will switch it into GS mode for you.  But first set up a song in songtrix with all your instruments and extended banks set up and ready to play.   Then play the sample midi file first and then play your songtrix song and see if it sounds any better.

I will be interested in the results because it may point us both  in the right direction for identifying the problem.

Martin

Martin again.   Ive just seen on the web that the SC-8820 comes with GSAE advanced editor.  If you run this there is an OPTIONS dropdown followed by OTHER OPTIONS and then MIDI with a check needed against "TRANSMIT GS RESET AT STARTUP".  Check it. Then shut GSAE down and restart it.  Then try playing your songtrix file.

Hi Eric
Dont spend too much time with the previous suggestions unless you want to because the problem is to do with a GM reset message being sent with program changes in songtrix. I have been able to bypass this GM reset message  and my SC88PRO works fine now.   I am sure you will be informed of the workaround and that you can get the full range of sounds on your SC-8820.

Hi Martin

What you say makes sense and is how I managed to access instruments on Roland JV2080 ie supressing GM reset within instrument, Unfortunately Songtrix then lost tutorial sounds.
As to the SC-8820 I bought it on Ebay and don't have the GS Advanced Editor or demo songs, I will try to find it on the internet but the Internet is'nt what it was 10 years ago, Now all you get is millions of hits with someone trying to sell you something else that does'nt work as advertised.
Hey Ho, All I really want is some simple sequencer and an instrument to work together so I can potter with music without being bogged down with technicality's!!!

P.S Pleased you're sorted, Have fun :-)

Hi Martin

When you say you've bypassed GM message and sc88Pro now works fine do you mean it works fine in Songtrix?, Do you have a setting on SC88pro which blocks GM reset.

I've found and installed GSAE but it does not seem to have a means of blocking a GM reset, Can't get a good overview of software due to poor manual, As far as I can see GSAE would be great for editing exported midi files to make changes that sequencer is unable to make, This approach however would not help with instrument changes which you really need access to within sequencer.

It has to be said though that it would be strange for a sequencer which supports GS to send a GM reset as opposed to a GS reset, Can CW support please confirm if a GM reset is being sent when it should be a GS reset?.

"Does anyone know if songtrix uses a GM or GS reset thereby ignoring the ins file Bank select." This was your question in your first post.  The answer is Yes. Songtrix is sending a GM reset message when you change your patches which is most likely the cause of your problem.   The reason I suggested using GSAE was to see if your problem was the same as mine.  You need to get GSAE to send a GS reset at startup from the OPTIONS/OTHER OPTIONS/MIDI menu.  If you restart GSAE it will put your SC-8820 into GS mode.  Now if you play a song in songtrix it should play correctly.  The trouble is, if you try changing the instruments again in your song before you play it , songtrix will send a GM  reset and your back to square one.  But if you choose the instruments you want to use FIRST even though you cant hear them correctly ( just choose anything distinctive that you are familiar with from an extended bank say on the melody track ) BEFORE running GSAE , songtrix will play your song with your chosen patches.  Songtrix doesn't send a GM reset when you play a song, only when you change banks and instruments in the track setup.

Anyway all this is about to  be solved I expect.

Hi Eric,

I've sent MartinT a patched version of Songtrix with GM Reset removed to see if that resolved the issue and it did.

Tried to send the same thing to you, but the message was rejected by your email provider as too big (~5MB).

Do you have an alternate email address?  Gmail perhaps?  If so, can you submit through the support form

http://www.chordwizard.net/Support/Request

and I will try to resend.

Hi CW Support

Sent details of Gmail address on Wed 19 but recieved no response.

Temporary Email addr=sontrix@gmail.com

Hi Eric, Gmail rejected the email also, they must be taking exception to the EXE, even though it's wrapped in a zip.

You might just have to wait until our next update release, probably within the next two or three weeks.

We're pretty confident the issue will then be resolved for you.